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Every year I see more on the map. Have a solar node, good fun.
Ever useful? I doubt it, HAM would dominate in a collapse.
In a true emergency? Yes, HAM is the way to go and I need to get around to buying one of those super sketchy Baofengs. In theory you can configure them to use without a license (which is also on the todo list) but it is super easy to tick into the licensed use. How much people will care will mostly depend on whether your local HAM folk are narcs. But, regardless, all bets are off in a true emergency and Baofengs are dirt cheap.
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
And anyone thinking of using any of that for stuff the government don’t want you to: You are an idiot and you need to learn about how insecure all of those are.
No wonder they’re insecure with you calling them idiots all the time.
🫣
You just can’t legally transmit without a license. You can own a ham radio and listen all you want.
Perhaps where you live.
Internet 101: Laws aren’t the same everywhere.
Edit: My point wasn’t specifically about amateur radio (I’m also one) nor where I live, but about the old-as-the-internet habit of people scoffing about what is and isn’t legal without even knowing where the person they’re replying to lives.
On the radio front, numerous countries require licences to legally listen to public broadcast radio (Switzerland, Slovenia and Montenegro are examples). If your handy dandy Baofeng UV5 can pick up broadcast FM radio frequencies, in such countries it will fall under licencing requirements even if you never transmit.
Out of curiosity: where do you live where listening on ham requires a license?
In the US and other countries I am aware of, listening is allowed without a license (how would one even enforce such a thing?). In fact, you can even transmit on a ham radio in the US without a license provided there is an immediate risk to life or property.
What if the “laws aren’t the same” remark was about “you can’t transmit without a permit”? Not about the “you need license to listen”?
Could be. I expect the commenter would clarify.
Early evening in the western hemisphere, OP posted a large sum of perfectly native fluency English, so yeah, I’ll assume US or Canada. Can’t have a conversation without making reasonable assumptions. But please, feel free to add to the conversation, where do some of these exceptions exist? Don’t just “um, actually” the conversation, add to it!
You legally need a license for HAM in the US, but there’s nothing really preventing anyone from configuring a radio to licensed frequencies. As for HAMs reporting you, if it’s an emergency the FCC rarely fines anyone if it’s for medical or safety concerns, were any amateurs to even report you. The whole reason for the Tech license for example is just to know laws and rules for operation. It’s damn easy, too. License exam was $25 a few years back, 8 year term. All the questions and answers are avilable online, they just pull (35? I think) from the pool of 400. Most is pretty basic rules of common sense and civility, a few laws. Most tech questions are just converting frequencies and basic math. They don’t require morse anymore (Thank god, or I’d never pass). And if you pass the Tech, you can go right back in for free to try the next exam level. I never use mine, but I do have an HT I keep charged in case of emergencies.
I think many people are unaware that you don’t need Morse anymore tbh. This makes the license extremely easy to get, but the knowledge you can get from ham radio is off the charts.
FYI, it’s not HAM (not an acronym)-- just ham. Named because the people fucking around with radios were “hamming it up”, back in the day.
They dropped the morse requirement because people just stopped taking the test
Which “people”?
Human people. My source is the old ham dude who gave us the ham exam I managed to bungle and haven’t gotten around to retaking.
He was the type who used morse code at gigabit speeds with a funky looking sideways key
you need to learn about how insecure all of those are.
By all means enlighten the idiots. Start with meshtastic’s weak encryption.
Licensing means nothing in an emergency situation. I never understand why it is even mentioned in these arguments. In fact, even if the world isn’t ending, you can ALWAYS use a ham radio in an emergency with or without a license (defined by the FCC as immediate dangers to life or property).
More importantly, there are at least an order of magnitude more ham radios out there than mesh devices. It isn’t even close. If the world ends, find a ham radio. Ideally you will know what to do with it when the time comes.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
Maybe you’d understand more things if you continued to read after the first opportunity you see to spew whatever you want to?
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
Disagree. Ham is better here, for the reasons I already mentioned.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
You don’t risk a fine if you get the license first. The test is not difficult and costs something like $10.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
I put in the appropriate amount of energy for the quality of the comment (and the rudeness of the response – be better).
Got it. Nobody should consider the need for a license because, in an emergency, you don’t need one. But also get a license so that you can use it in non-emergencies otherwise you’ll get a fine.
Good talk.
I guess here the topic is more of insurrections, like what’s happening in Iran right now or how it went on in HK
How fast could a group of 5 people that want to remove all nodes in the area need to do so? Are they all listed on a map with their location?
I’ll say what I just said on a similar thread: if the internet goes down tomorrow, mesh will mean very little compared to ham radio.
Any quality transceiver built in the last 100 years will be more useful. It is purely about how many exist, how long they last, and their requirements for use (which are effectively, power and antenna).
Yes, there is a license that you need in non-emergency situations. It doesn’t change much anything in emergency situations, and it certainly doesn’t affect the fact that there are already millions of radios out there.
I certainly wouldn’t throw away a mesh if the world was ending – I’d set it on the desk while finding contacts on HF (=world band) using a ham radio. My chances of contact there are at least an order of magnitude better.
I’ve come to the realization that mesh nodes are little more than a gateway drug into the world of ham radio. And for that I’m grateful.
It’s not as good, and does everything worse than radio. The only real world use I have found is for when cellphone networks get overwhelmed at things like music festivals and large sports games. No one else’s texts go through, but I can toss by buds a node to put in their back pocket and we can stay in touch.
our local mature club is building our local mesh network out now as an introduction to the ham world. And it’s working. It’s getting the younger kids and adults through the door. And from there, it’s an easy thing to get them interested in more useful and fun forms of communication.
Now that I like. And I think there is room for both – IF people know and understand the differences.
Mesh against ham in an emergency is not even a competition, in my view. The numbers just aren’t there. But for random cellular failures etc, I see some utility.
Personally, I’ve just seen so much more about mesh lately than ham, and it makes me sad. If it’s a gateway, as you suggest, then great. I worry that people see it as a novelty and not a gateway.
Oh it’s a hundred percent just the novelty communication technology that is in vogue right now. I don’t really know if it’s a true zeitgeist technology or if someone with a lot of product to sell who is playing with the social media algorithm. But I guess I don’t really care much.
The trick is to find a way to seize on that opportunity. Now that our mesh network is structurally sound and sufficient, I’m working on using a raspberry pi to automate our ham club meeting dates, testing dates, and field days, and then blast those messages once a week or so over the mesh network. That way, an impulse buy turns into the discovery of a fuctional network and afterwards, a random person can discover a whole local community of people with all sorts of new things to learn.
You can lead a horse to water. But you can’t make him drink.
first you need a trough. That’s the mesh network. After, the horse needs to be thirsty. That’s the curiosity people have. information, the when and how and where, you can automate and passively tell them about. that’s the water.
Good on you for using one to bolster the other! Smart use of the tech either way.
There was a massive power outage in Portugal not too long ago and people used Meshtastic to communicate between cities to see who had power.
It does work, but it’s not a Final Solution
I expect they also used ham. It’s just a numbers game. Mesh doesn’t have them in comparison.
Both can coexist, more options is better when talking about decentralised systems
Meshtastic has some store-and-forward stuff that’s damn nice but someone has to set it up.
Meshcore has routers, repeaters and mailboxes.
It it could be pushed up to a few watts it would be far more useful.
our local mature club
You meant senior citizens or content?
Why not both? 😉
Great typo, I’m leaving it.
I’ve been fooling around with Meshtastic for a couple years and haven’t come up with a real world use for it yet, other than scenarios like you mentioned.
What would be really cool is if cell phone makers could incorporate a mesh into their phones as a local public channel when the tower goes out. It would probably just be used by drug dealers or something, but it’s the only cool and functional idea I can come up with.
If they can’t charge an admittance fee or a per message fee, they won’t implement it. It goes against their business model.
But we can dream.
Controlling home automation remotely without any internet access.
Tracking dogs, people or vehicles - again with no internet.
I don’t see how you could get enough reliability to do either from any distance.
It all depends on the environment and the amount of nodes. I’m not exactly controlling Fort Knox here so 100% reliability isn’t a big point
It’s still cool to be at the store 2-3km away and get a notification that the fridge door is open, via a completely independent network 😀
I get the exact same notification via the internet, but it’s not as cool
FYI if you’re ham licensed, you can boost the output power of your mesh radio. There’s a setting in most firmwares.
If I recall correctly, you can, but it removes your node from the public networks everyone else is using because hams cannot use encryption for coms as part of the rules for ham operation, as the non ham network is encrypted by default. You would have to build a secondary network independent of the public node list.
Correct me if I’m wrong. But that was my understanding of the difference.
You’re probably right. I noticed the feature, but haven’t personally tried it.
But you lose encryption.
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Here meshtastic has become part of the emergency information network initiative. If there is a coms blackout, intercity/town civillian communications are to be handled by amateur radio enthusiast with licence and communications whitin the city/town will be handled by licence free systems. Meshtastic has been spreading well among the general public, so it has become most viable system to use at lowest level in the chain.
But it just isn’t. Why not put those resources towards ham, where there are considerably more handsets already there?
This seems like a solution in search of a problem thay was already solved, hidden by people who don’t want a $10 license.
Have you thought about not trying to drag meshtastic down to try and prop ham up?
I get it, you spent a bunch of time studying for your ham and you don’t want it to feel like a waste, but lets be perfectly frank here- most people aren’t going to get a HAM license. It IS, however, VERY accessible for someone to buy a cheap gadget on sale to try out.
I never understand why ham radio people always try to sabotage every other communication method, but you guys do it every time.
Let other people communicate how they want.
I’m not trying to drag anything down. But I think it is important for many people to realize that the meshtastic is ultimately a ham device. It is using specific parts of the spectrum and reduced power to avoid needing the license. There’s nothing wrong with that, but by definition, it isn’t really adding anything that can’t also be done on ham. In a similar vein, the only direction to go in terms of enhancing its capabilities is further into ham.
And no, I didn’t spend a bunch of time doing anything. People vastly overestimate the complexity of the ham radio exams.
But by all means, use what you want to communicate. I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from it – I just think it’s important that they know the limitations of the device compared to the greater whole in which it exists.
it isn’t really adding anything that can’t also be done on ham.
Encryption, affordability, ease of access.
It is a misconception that you cannot do encryption with ham radio.
Affordability – looks like a wash to me.
Ease of access – maybe. But it generally does less, so it’s a tradeoff.
It is a misconception that you cannot do encryption with ham radio.
Encryption: read the comments - in some jurisdictions you can’t (legally).
Affordability: in some parts of the work it’s expensive to get a ham license (required by law).
Ease of access: that one’s subjective, fine.
You get shitloads more people to buy a cheap gadget that’s easy carry with you.
If you start talking about ham radios and licences, most people loose interest before you finish the sentence.
The HAM license isn’t a trivial checkbox test, at least not over here
I’d love to know where a ham test is difficult.
Finland. The questions for the basic test require you to actually know your shit, they’re specifically worded so that you can’t wing it
I failed it, that’s how I know. By a few points but still 😀
So, I setup meshtastic.
Put an antenna on my roof.
Have a decent number of mesh radios. Put one in each car in relay mode.
Setup a locally run LLM and made an interface to it.
Working on setting up a BBS.
I’m in the high density suburbs, I can, when the weather is just right, reach a single node that doesn’t seem to be able to reach any other nodes.
If I go on a drive, I can see 5-10 nodes.
Adoption in the mid-Atlantic US is just so damn low, it’s not really usable.
We need some antennas up high, but there aren’t any reasonable options around me.
So much of our infrastructure uses the internet now that if it goes down I wouldn’t be shocked if electric grids, healthcare, shopping, public transport, etc also shit the bed.
Add some batteries to the meshtatic nodes. and even if all electricity and networks go down, you and your friends can still organize and plan.
Internet outages happen all the time. Most of these networks can run independent for a time. And are designed to be so. Only smaller networks have issues because they are not designed as such. But things like toast make a small store feasible to run. If electricity goes out then it has bigger issues, but I’ve seen stores go to hand swipe cards before to keep from closing.
I wonder if that fancy bed company that saw it’s beds freeze 'cos no AWS ever sold to hospitals…
I can only speak for the US, but our electric grids and production are supposed to be air gapped for critical infrastructure. Healthcare? I doubt it based on the continuous leaks there - and medical supply chains are tightly integrated with internet/cloud… Shopping still has a fairly sizeable local accessibility for staple items, certainly food distro where the internet wouldn’t matter for at least a short while, but it’s also tightly integrated for Supply Chain Management, much like Health care - so there could be a run on it.
I’m not sure on public transport, but most are goverment led, so probably air gapped.
There’s also a shitton of dark fiber laying about. Internet infrastructure COULD be brought back up depending on the damage that triggered outages in the first place.
Literally all the ordering for stores uses the internet now; we’d be absolutely fucked for a good while if the internet actually went down in the USA.
I can only speak for the US, but our electric grids and production are supposed to be air gapped for critical infrastructure.
Do oil pipelines count? 'Cos Colonial got hacked and everybody thought they were airgapped.
I think some water facility was too but no serious values were changed - 'cos and admin preferred to sit comfy at home.I’m not exactly standing behind it - just saying what I’ve read. I’m confident nuclear plants are after 9/11. Anything else is probably hit or miss, including petro/gas pipelines, coal, and generating plants specifically. Plus if a bad actor (likely state sanctioned) decides to, they can get through air gaps with spies/traitors/unwitting idiots with a simple USB drive. After air gapped uranium processing centrifuges were wrecked with an errant USB drive, I would expect all systems to disable or remove USB drive connectivity, but I’m sure that’s inconsistent… at best.
After air gapped uranium processing centrifuges were wrecked with an errant USB drive,
I’d forgotten about stuxnet, quite the (technical) feat.
I love Meshtastic. Had a nice convo with a stranger last night while I was LoRa wardriving to test out the range of my new rooftop antenna on my house.
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Huh? Can anyone explain what all these words mean? Mesh? Ham radio? How does this work is it like toy walkie talkie?
They’re a mesh walkie-talkie, but you don’t need to walkie or talkie 😁
Meshnet means that if A can see B and B can see C, then A can message C, it’s routed through B automatically.
Also it’s text only, not enough bandwidth for speech
Isn’t this just like the internet though?
That’s the point, but it doesn’t require an ISP
Internet routing is a bit more complex, but basically yes.
So it’s like a pager?
I think Ham radio means hobby and amateur radio, I.e. not professional. Radio is a type of radiation at very long wavelength. From the wiki:
long waves can diffractaround obstacles like mountains and follow the contour of the Earth (ground waves), shorter waves can reflect off the ionosphere and return to Earth beyond the horizon (skywaves), while much shorter wavelengths bend or diffract very little and travel on a line of sight, so their propagation distances are limited to the visual horizon.
Others have explained mesh pretty well.
I should download classic wow servers game and addons for long term storage in case of WW3 🤔 and wikipedia too
wow before wiki… priorities.
Culture is important ! Science too I guess hut we have libraries
I’m really hoping this takes off.
Same, decentralized mesh networks would be the equivalent of a “federated internet”. No one person owning the infrastructure.
If this were to become mainstream the mesh would become the “Internet”, with enough nodes, pcs and servers.
And in the meantime where one mesh does not “connect” to another, traffic could be routed through the “old internet” by one or more exit nodes connected to the “old internet”.
The meshtastic website has a getting started guide that assumes you already have equipment first…which is odd. Is there a reason to go with Bluetooth only? Does it make more sense to get a Bluetooth and WiFi device?
Bluetooth first generally because you use a companion app on your phone to interface with the device and the BLE chip (nrf25840) sips power compared to the esp based wifi chips, that you will likely be supplying with a battery of some sort.
Is there a map that shows where are using them? It looks like a fun idea, but I don’t want to get something and no one is using it in my region. (Outback Australia)
Yup, same thoughts here (Norway). I doubt anyone near me uses it.
There are some, there are probably more than are in the picture, map access is opt-in
Meshtastic sounds great in concept but IMO it’s useless in most parts of the world due to it’s extreme low power.
If all your neighbours have one or there aren’t many buidings around blocking line of sight then meshtastic has great potential. Otherwise I would stuck be sending messages to myself.
Now, they made boards with more power that operated and crossed at several different frequency bands, specially shortwave, then meshtastic would be an incredibility powerful too. However illegal.
Antennas and location.
I can see one node on top of the tallest building around here and it allows me to connect to nodes 20-30km away.
Now, they made boards with more power that operated and crossed at several different frequency bands,
Some nodes have up to 5 watts, but you have to put them in ham mode with your license, it also disables encryption (ham requirement)
You can stitch together several different cheap radios in different frequencies using MQTT.
TBF, I’d be super happy just to move back to APRS, (i’m a ham) but the equipment is stupid expensive.
What time zone?
Their website is .nl, so it may or may not be Netherlands time, which would be 6PM UTC, I think.
How resilient is something like Meshtastic? My understanding is that anyone can configure their device poorly so that it can become overly chatty, congesting the network. Even in ideal an ideal scenario with properly configured nodes, could this actually survive if it saw more than hobbiest adoption?
I think it’s really cool and i like having this idea of a backup communication system, but if has serious range limitations and is likely to be overwhelmed in a no-cell scenario is it even worth it, or is it just fun to play around with?
By default it implements rough limits that you cannot exceed to make sure that you do not not transmit too much noise. Additionally, you can always establish private channels for your nodes and / or not retransmit at all.
Meshtastic isn’t intended for mission-critical uses or as an internet substitute. It is intended for very basic text based communication (e.g. between your friends) or remote IoT devices.
The congestion argument also applies to all radio based communication, there are always people transmitting with high gain, noisy outputs or spam.
Yeah, I understand the limitations of the frequency and the compromises mesh networks have to make. I wouldn’t expect it to be an internet substitute. My point is, and I do apologise because I cannot remember the source, I recall hearing about a convention or a protest or some larger gathering where people tried to use Meshtastic and it cratered due to load.
If that above case actually did happen and I’m not mis-remembering, then it doesn’t bode well for adoption by the non-tech savvy. You get into this odd area where you have tech and RF hobbiests that think this is cool beans, but they don’t make up enough people for a robust network. However the more people you bring on that don’t understand radio settings the more succeptible you are to poor performance. Then if it ever does it mass adoption it is likely oitside the abilities of the tech and scale just isn’t possible. You need this sweet spot.
With ham or something else you can have a few people in more remote locations because of superior range, but with low powered RF like Meshtastic you really want portable devices for people on the ground. All this is to say I love the idea of being able to give something like this to a loved one going to a protest or something, but I’m just not sure if it’s more than a toy yet.
I’m not sure what they could do to keep this open while ensuring stability unless they start to add dynamic settings to tje protocol. Something that detects if there’s too much congestion, or if signals are too strong to automatically switch from LongFast to something more applicable to a the dense group you’re in. Then manual settings get hidden behind an advanced menu? But that would be entirely on tje firmware to control.
Anyway, I’m rambling and trying to solution without actually owning one, so I could be way off. I just really like the idea of short range personal communication and want this to be more than a tinker tech.
In Switzerland, we already switched to MediumFast due to congestion in cities. It was a coordinated change and real world tests showed no significant worse mesh performance for most nodes. Meshtastic is evolving fast and I think it does become more and more viable as an off-grid or doomsday communication. It also is hard to censor which could be useful for journalism and free speech. Hence, not a substitute for the internet, but a more and more viable solution for many.
Can’t speak about any mass gatherings or protests, but haven’t had any issues so far with mine. Even in big cities, air util and ch util is below 35% so there is a lot more space available.
